3.5e vs 5e Monster Creation & Modification: Hit Die and Ability scores

5e SRD Series

D & D 5th Edition and a 5e x 5 SRD Project

The difficulty with 5e escalating HP and Damage.

5e- the fluidity of magic

5e Magic v Technology

5e skill reduction, Modern D20 to 5e

5e Skill Observations compared to 3.5 and OSRIC

3.5 vs 5.0 d20 - Large Spider comparison

Orc comparison: 5e x 5 to other d100 games.

3.5e vs 5e Monster Creation & Modification: Hit Die and Ability scores

In this post I want to look at the differences in monster creation from the 3.5 systems and the 5e system. This first post I'll look at the Hit Die and the basic ability scores. I also want to make a progression based on the 3.5 creature ability arrays.

1. Hit Points and Hit Die

3.5 Hit Die

In 3.5, Hit Die are based on primarily the creature type. Creature types function as the player character classes in that they determine the base die and the level progression of #of Hit Dice.

Type	Hit Die
Aberration	d8
Animal	d8
Construct	d10
Dragon	d12
Elemental	d8
Fey	d6
Giant	d8
Humanoid	d8
Magical beast	d10
Monstrous humanoid	d8
Ooze	d10
Outsider	d8
Plant	d8
Undead	d12
Vermin	d8

5e Hit Die

5e differs in that Hit dice are based on the size of the creature.

Monster Size	Hit Die	Average HP per Die
Tiny	d4	2½
Small	d6	3½
Medium	d8	4½
Large	d10	5½
Huge	d12	6½
Gargantuan	d20	10½

3.5 Consistency v 5e Inconsistency

In a way, this creates an inconsistency between size and class based hit points in 5e.

On one hand, player Hit Dice are determined by the player's class. On the other hand, monster Hit Dice are based on size, which is primarily based on the creature type or the race.

I believe that this inconsistency is mainly to help maintain class balance. If player HP were based on a race based size, then a wizard could just pick the largest player race. That would create a very hard to kill wizard. Whereas, it would discourage picking small races such as the halfling or gnome because they would die much easier. Race does have a minimum influence on hit points due to the Constitution racial ability bonus that some classes have. A +1 or +2 CON bonus may improve the hit point modifier by one.

Maintaining class based HP on the other hand ties the hit points to the function that they will be doing in the game.

2. Base Ability Scores

The 3.5 has mentioned three base scores depending on the how powerful the creature will be.
Standard (average) average 10
Non-Elite 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8
Elite 15, 14, 13, 12, 9, 8

My Attribute Score Progression for 5e

Based on these three pools of stats, I created this progression chart showing a 5e stat increase based on raising two stats by 1 every 4 levels.

	Primary		Secondary		Tertiary
Standard	10	10	10	10	9	8
	11	11	10	10	9	8
	12	11	11	10	9	8
Non-Elite	13	12	11	10	9	8
	14	13	11	10	9	8
	14	13	12	11	9	8
	15	13	12	11	10	8
Elite	15	14	13	11	10	8
	16	15	13	11	10	8
	17	15	14	11	10	8
	18	15	14	12	10	8
	19	16	14	12	10	8
	20	17	14	12	10	8

3.5 vs 5.0 d20 - Large Spider comparison

5e SRD Series

D & D 5th Edition and a 5e x 5 SRD Project

The difficulty with 5e escalating HP and Damage.

5e- the fluidity of magic

5e Magic v Technology

5e skill reduction, Modern D20 to 5e

5e Skill Observations compared to 3.5 and OSRIC

3.5 vs 5.0 d20 - Large Spider comparison

I want to compare the stat block for the Large sized spider to see how the versions changed. I notice that most of the stats are similar despite being different CR levels. This may only be true at lower levels. I'll try doing a higher level comparison of a dragon next time..

1. Names

3.5e Monstrous Spider, Large
5e Giant Spider

First of all the names are somewhat different. In 3.5e, several sizes are available besides the Large Monstrous Spider. However, 5e only comes in one size in the reference document.

2. Challenge Rating

3.5e Challenge Rating: 2
5e Challenge 1 (200 XP)

The Challenge Rating has gone down one level. Despite this decrease, the stats and abilities seem somewhat similar as will be seen below.

3. Size, Type, alignment

3.5e Size/Type: Large Vermin

5e Large beast, unaligned

Both spiders are Large size

4. Hit Dice & Hitpoints

3.5e Hit Dice: 4d8+4 (22 hp)

5e Hit Points 26 (4d10 + 4)

Despite being lower CR, the 5e giant spider has more hitpoints due to the increase in hitdice from d8 to d10

5. Armor Class

3.5e Armor Class: 14 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 11

5e Armor Class 14 (natural armor)

Armor Class the same. 3.5 provides additional information that explains how that number was calculated.

6. Speed

3.5e Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 20 ft.
5e Speed 30 ft., climb 30 ft.

Speed is the same and climb has increased.

7. Abilities

3.5e Abilities: Str 15 (+3), Dex 17 (+3), Con 12 (+1), Int Ø (na), Wis 10 (+0), Cha 2 (-4)

Initiative:	+3

5e STR14 (+2), DEX16 (+3), CON12 (+1), INT2 (−4), WIS11 (+0), CHA4 (−3)

Strength has decreased and intelligence and charisma have increased slightly.

8. Skills

3.5e Skills: Climb +11, Hide +3*, Jump +2*, Spot +4*

Monstrous spiders have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Spot checks and a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks. A monstrous spider can always choose to take 10on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. Monstrous spiders use either their Strength or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks, whichever is higher.
*Hunting spiders have a +10 racial bonus on Jump checks and a +8 racial bonus on Spot checks. Web-spinning spiders have a +8 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks when using their webs. 

5e Skills Stealth +7 Spider Climb. The spider can climb difficult surfaces, including upside down on ceilings, without needing to make an ability check.
Web Sense. While in contact with a web, the spider knows the exact location of any other creature in contact with the same web.
Web Walker. The spider ignores movement restrictions caused by webbing.

The stealth ability seems better for the 5e spider. Climb seems much better since the 5e spider automatically climbs difficult surfaces due to the description of Spider Climb. The 3e spider seems to have to make a climb roll and use a +11 bonus - which means that that spider could fail the roll and fall. While the 3e spider receives +4 Spot bonus, the 5e spider receives a 10 to perception as will be seen in the section 10 Senses section and Web Sense.  This is very much improved senses.

9. Attacks

3.5e Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+9 Attack:Bite +4 melee (1d8+3 plus poison) Full Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d8+3 plus poison) Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Poison, web

Poison (Ex)

A monstrous spider has a poisonous bite. The details vary by the spider’s size, as shown on the table below. The save DCs are Constitution-based. The indicated damage is initial and secondary damage.

Web (Ex)

Both types of monstrous spiders often wait in their webs or in trees, then lower themselves silently on silk strands and leap onto prey passing beneath. A single strand is strong enough to support the spider and one creature of the same size. Web-spinners can throw a web eight times per day. This is similar to an attack with a net but has a maximum range of 50 feet, with a range increment of 10 feet, and is effective against targets up to one size category larger than the spider. An entangled creature can escape with a successful Escape Artist check or burst it with a Strength check. Both are standard actions whose DCs are given in the table below. The check DCs are Constitution-based, and the Strength check DC includes a +4 racial bonus.

Web-spinners often create sheets of sticky webbing from 5 to 60 feet square, depending on the size of the spider. They usually position these sheets to snare flying creatures but can also try to trap prey on the ground. Approaching creatures must succeed on a DC 20 Spot check to notice a web; otherwise they stumble into it and become trapped as though by a successful web attack. Attempts to escape or burst the webbing gain a +5 bonus if the trapped creature has something to walk on or grab while pulling free. Each 5-foot section has the hit points given on the table, and sheet webs have damage reduction 5/—.

A monstrous spider can move across its own web at its climb speed and can pinpoint the location of any creature touching its web.

5e Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one creature. Hit: 7 (1d8 + 3) piercing damage, and the target must make a DC 11 Constitution saving throw, taking 9 (2d8) poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. If the poison damage reduces the target to 0 hit points, the target is stable but poisoned for 1 hour, even after regaining hit points, and is paralyzed while poisoned in this way.
Web (Recharge 5–6). Ranged Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, range 30/60 ft., one creature. Hit: The target is restrained by webbing. As an action, the restrained target can make a DC 12 Strength check, bursting the webbing on a success. The webbing can also be attacked and destroyed (AC 10; hp 5; vulnerability to fire damage; immunity to bludgeoning, poison, and psychic damage).
To snare its prey, a giant spider spins elaborate webs or shoots sticky strands of webbing from its abdomen. Giant spiders are most commonly found underground, making their lairs on ceilings or in dark, web-­filled crevices. Such lairs are often festooned with web cocoons holding past victims.

Despite being lower CR level, the 5e spider receives a higher bonus to hit and though has similar damage.

10. Senses

3.5e Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., tremorsense 60 ft., vermin traits

Tremorsense (Ex)
A monstrous spider can detect and pinpoint any creature or object within 60 feet in contact with the ground, or within any range in contact with the spider’s webs.

5e Senses blindsight 10 ft., darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 10

11. Saves

3.5e Saves: Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +1
5e STR14 (+2), DEX16 (+3), CON12 (+1), INT2 (−4), WIS11 (+0), CHA4 (−3)

5e switched to basic stat based resistance instead of fort, ref, and will. It also has charisma save.

12 Remaining information from 3.5e.

Feats:	—
Environment:	Temperate forests
Organization:	Solitary or colony (2-5)
Treasure:	1/10 coins; 50% goods; 50% items
Advancement:	5-7 HD (Large)

This is information missing from the 5e SRD. This information is helpful for setting and treasure distribution.

Summary

In all, I think that the large monstrous spider and the giant spider are comparable between versions with only small changes.

 

JAGS: A) OGL 5e SRD conversion to JAGS

JAGS Fan Content series
The search for a fantasy or universal RPG: The winner and my choice.
Test played Reviews: JAGS Revised
JAGS: NPC templates for humans by type
JAGS: NPC list & skills
JAGS: Creating wild west creatures
JAGS: A) OGL 5e SRD conversion to JAGS

JAGS is a free downloadable universal role-playing game found at http://mchacon8.wixsite.com/jagsrpg. It also can be purchased in book form.

The first method that I will try will actually be a direct conversion from 5e SRD of animals.

I made this up using a little logic and reason. I'll experiment to see how well it converts compared to a direct creation following the rules. I'll convert derived stats from any directly converted stats such as DP and additional damage..

Looking at OGL Playable Species, aka Races

This is part of somewhat a informal series comparing Open Gaming License (OGL) data from various gaming systems. The prior posts in this comparison were looking at the Abilities & Skills and basic stat blocks from the OGL games.

1) Attributes, skills, and special gifts
2) Looking at OGL stat data: Black Bear

In this post, I wanted to compare the stat bonuses of common, and lesser common but popular, gaming playable species normally called races. I normally like to call them species because it gets weird for me when referring to less-than-human-like species. Species where hybrids are more difficult for me to imagine.

Stable Between Games

Humans - In all of the systems, a humans is the most flexible of the races.
Dwarf - In all of the games, a dwarf is sturdy and resilient.
Elf - In all of the games, an elf is quick.
Halfling - In all of the games, a halfling is quick.
Orc - In all of the games, an orc is strong.
Goblin - In all of the games, a goblin is quick.
Angel - These are normally wise and charismatic.
Demon - These are normally intelligent and hideous.

Differ Between Games

Gnome - Really vary between games.
Vampire/Dhampir - Somewhat vary between games.

My Evaluation of the Playable Species

Although there is a core trait-consistent group of playable fantasy species, a few of them aren't as standardized. Quick trait seems to be the most common type of non-human species. Quickness is normally important in games for initiative and long range attacks.

Looking at OGL stat data: Black Bear

Comparative Stat Structure

For creatures, monsters, and encounters, I wanted to look at and test out some of the things that other games have done. For the comparison, system information will be placed on a spreadsheet with columns presenting similar data for each system. The comparison that I am doing is based on game systems that have some sort of Open License. This comparison is for my own study and information purposes and does not mean that any of these systems endorses such comparison. Copyrights of the actual product names remain with their creators.

To show the method I am considering, I just pick one creature - the black bear.

Black Bear

For a creature, a black bear seemed like a good beginning creature to show in this post.

Most of the systems are consistent with each other.

They show that it is very aware and perceptive.
It is strong and can be quick.
Bears are somewhat wise.
They aren't very intelligent nor charismatic.
Their armor defense is very slight.
They seem to have a slightly more powerful bite than the claw attacks.
Personality wise, they avoid threats unless protecting themselves or others.
Most games put them on average at a level 2 or 3 encounter.
Some games mention that they are intimidating.

Comparative Stat Block

For the comparison, I chose to use  the model that I presented in the Attributes post as an overall structure.

For spirit I used wisdom, alignment, and acumen for different systems. Most of the systems that mentioned they were either protective, neutral, or unaligned. 

Although I didn't add it to this stat block, most of the systems mention that these bears have good survival, resilience, will, or mettle skills.

Dice, Cards, and Probability part 3 The d12

In this Dice, Cards, and Probability Series
In Part 1, I looked at probability, notation, number of occurrences.
In Part 2, I looked at linear die/dice (single) results

Having seen what a single die/dice of can role and compared them to each other in the prior post, I wanted to spend this post looking at specifically the d12 and a potential framework for using it. In a similar manner it and any other based dice can construct similar mechanics.

Mechanics

To compare mechanics, I will either use open source or unrestricted single systems by name, or mention summaries of copyright systems only by reference to a created summary name, not their proper names.

The first mechanical difference seen between systems is that many are roll-over systems. However, there are a few roll-under systems. After that, I focus on the core mechanics of modifiers (bonuses and penalties), proficiency/skills, and then the difficulty ladders.

Rolling over or rolling under

Systems are either of two types. Rolling over and rolling under a certain value. Also the system must address what rolling equal to that certain value means.

The roll over system either compares against another character's roll or a target number based on difficulty. The roll under system normally uses the base state + skill as the number to roll under. Both types are modified with bonuses and penalties.

We will look at two roll over systems (a converted d20 and a full d12) and then a d12 roll under system.

Modifiers

Modifiers for abilities, skills, proficiency, and situations can be also applied either to a roll or a target number.

Target/difficulty number in both systems

In a roll over system, a chart of standard target numbers by difficulty must be created. This is used to figure out what number must be rolled over when tasks must be accomplished when not competing against another sentient being. In those competing tasks, the target number is rolling against the other being.

In a roll under system, difficulty is normally a modifier to the stat + skill basis.

Breaking it apart

Systems normally have besides the dice roll adjusting modifiers based on attributes, stats, skills, abilities, magic bonus, equipment bonus, talents, gifts, species bonus, and such. We will analyze a few popular open license game content to help us see different perspectives.

1d12 Probability Graph

A summary of the linear graph can be shown in this image. We can compare this probability chart of rolling 1d12 to other types of rolls.

image made at anydice.com

1.) d20 5e converted system ¹

Starting with the latest of the d20 systems, 5th edition is the newest incarnation. It is based on a d20 as mentioned. The main modifier is the Ability Modifier, based on an ability score that is normally from -5 to +5 but sometimes is up to +10. That modifier is added to the roll and compared to a target number. Proficiency bonus from +2 to +6 is given for select skills. For skill checks, the target number is in increments of 5 up to 30, for a total of 6 degrees of difficulty. 5e (fifth edition) is a modified roll equal to or over the target number to succeed type system. For contest checks, each side rolls and modifies. The higher number wins, and ties means the situation remains the same. For combat, armor type bonus called armor class, Dexterity bonus, and a few other defensive bonuses determines the basic target number that the players need to roll equal to or greater to cause damage. Spells are automatic as long as conditions are met, except for some that require attack rolls and resistance rolls, which are also based on  the ability modifier.

Bonus and Proficiency conversion
Bonuses -5 to +5 (+10)
Proficiency Bonus +2 to +6
Bonus Percentage of dice= -25% to +25 (to +50%) of d20

d12 Bonuses - based on d20
d20	-5	-4	-3	-2	-1	0	+1	+2	+3	+4	+5	+6	+7	+8	+9	+10
d12	-3	-2		-1		0	+1		+2		+3		+4		+5

Difficulty conversion
Difficulty 25% to + 150% of d20

d12 Difficulty numbers
d20 Difficulty Adjective	Very Easy	Easy	Medium	Hard	Very Hard	Nearly Impossible
d12	3	6	9	12	15	18

This is a conversion of to parts of the mechanics that go with the dice rolls. The bonuses are added to the rolls based on what activity or skill designates the ability bonus (str, dex, con, int, wis, cha). Unlike the d20 previous versions, 5e doesn't have individual skill bonuses added on top of that, but rather uses a proficiency bonus for certain proficient skills. The bonus conversion chart can also be used to find the proficiency bonus.

Advantages and Disadvantages: 2d12

Earlier versions of d20 provide additional bonuses or penalties for situation, special abilities, traits, and environmental factors. Edition 5 now uses advantage and disadvantage rolls instead of adding and subtracting bonuses and penalties.

Advantage

 If an advantage is judged to be in effect, the higher of 2d12 results is used. As you can see, the probability is no longer flat. Instead it leans more towards the upper numbers.

Image made at anydice.com

Disadvantage

If a disadvantage is judged to be in effect, the lower of 2d12 results is used. As you can see, this is opposite of the Advantage roll. Now the results lean towards the lower numbers.

Image made at anydice.com

2.) A d12 system²

For this system, parts of it seem d20 related and part seems Fate related. First, comparison to the d20 conversion seems appropriate.

Instead of a d20-like attribute and proficiency system, it uses instead a +1 or +2 bonus very Fate-like. It does use however the advantage and disadvantage 5e roll system.

d20 conversion compared to a d12 system

The limit to normally +2 bonus and proficiency limits the 'impossible' skill level to 14 max (roll 12 + 2 bonus).

d12 Difficulty numbers
d20 Difficulty Adjective	Very Easy	Easy	Medium	Hard	Very Hard	Nearly Impossible
d12	3	6	9	12	15	18
A d12 system	Easy	Moderate	Hard	Very Hard	Impossible
d12	4	6	8	11	14

3.) Another d12 system³

Another d12 system uses the ability stats as a basis for a roll under system. Stats begin at 1 and can go above 12. Rolling a 12 however is automatic failure, so increasing above 11 only helps offset situation penalties.

Attributes in this game normally range from 1 to 4. In this other system they are permanent after initial character creation. Skills on the other hand can increase higher. Their chart goes up to skill level 12. They can be increased through spending points awarded from adventures.

Difficulty chart - modifiers

Although they do not have a comparable difficulty chart. A modifier chart can be constructed based on the samples of penalties.

Another d12 Difficulty modifier
Difficulty Adjective	Very Easy	Easy	Medium	Hard	Very Hard	Nearly Impossible
bonus/penalty	+4	+2	0	-2	-4 or -6	-7 to -12

Next Month

Probably will be Part 4 Rolling multiple dice probability

¹http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/systems-reference-document-srd
²https://d12rpg.com/
³http://www.dominiongames.com/download.html